Former President Louise Inacio Lula da Silva, arrested in April 2018 in Curitiba, first broke the silence with a justice permit on Friday in an exclusive interview with EL PAIS and the newspaper For me. Ready to talk. And he talks a lot. He is energetic, he moves his hands, makes jokes, metaphors, ironies, and uses his two hours of publicity to restore his strokes. "Imagine if Milsonians from Bolsonao were friends of my family." After seeing that the Supreme Court of Justice reduced the penalty for passive corruption and money laundering in the case of Gurugai's triplex, Lula believes it can be released. But he says he is not afraid to die in prison.
Three armed police officers accompany the interview. One of them is Jorge Chastalo Filho. From time to time he sees Lula and follows what the former president said. It seems to pay attention. Then he turned his eyes on the other members of the room: journalists, Lula's lawyers and Franklin Martins, a former minister in the Lula government's communications department. Frequent is the agent who is most in touch with the former president, while he is in his "room", where he reads the content of the pen he earns from the visits he receives weekly. This week was the end of the Italian sociologist Domenico Demassi.
Question. The arrest of the Lord was a historic day. What went through your head when you were arrested and ruled?
Answer. During the whole process, I was always sure that I had a central goal that was going to come to me. This was evident in all the statements, reminding you that the press was shown: arrested so and so, he will arrive in Lula. Arrested sican, you will reach Lula: "you know Lula, you are a friend of Lula, you did something … everyone." I knew this because the press portrayed it, people said. He knew this because the lawyer spoke to a lawyer. It was pathetic that the goal was to come to me. I had companions in PT that I did not like when I said this: they will come to me, and then go to criminalize PT. When the central goal became clear, many people thought I needed to leave Brazil, to go to the embassy, to run away. I think my place is here. I have so much obsession to disappoint [Sergio] I live in unmasking [Deltan] Dalagnhol and his gang and those who condemned me, that I will be jailed for a hundred years, but I will not change the dignity of my freedom. I want to taste the farce assembled. I want to prove it. Mounted here in the US Department of Justice with a testimony to prosecutors with a recorded movie, and now it's even harder than creating Foundation for Children's Hope from Dalagnola, taking 2.5 billion reais from Petrobras to create a basis for it. Of the $ 6.8 billion Odbercht and out, I do not know how many other things. I have an obsession, you know that I do not have hatred, I have no malice, because at my age when we hate people we die earlier. Because I want to live up to 120, because I think I am a human being born to go up to 120 years old, I will work hard to show my innocence and the farce that was set up. That's why I came here very quietly.
On that day there was a struggle between those who wanted to come and those who were not. And I made the decision. I said: I'm going, I'm going there. I will not wait for them to come to me, I go to them because I want to be trapped near Moro. Moro got out of here. But I want to stay close because I have to prove my innocence.
P. You can stay here forever. However, do you think that you have made the right decision?
R. I'll take it again.
P. Do you ever think you can stay here forever?
R. No problem. I am sure that I sleep every day with a peaceful conscience. I'm sure Dalagnhol does not sleep and Moro does not sleep. And those judges from TRF-4 who did not even read the sentence. They agreed there, it's better that only one read it and said that "everyone in this voice is the same". So I love, honestly. Who is 73 years old who built the life I built in this country, which established the ties I established, made by the government that I did in this country, which restored the pride and self-esteem of the Brazilian people like me, I have not delivered . They know that there is a stubborn Pernambuco here. I always say, who was born in Pernambuco and did not die from starvation until the age of five, did not bow to anything more. Do you think I would not want to be home? I would like to be at home with my wife, my children, grandchildren, and my friends. But I have no doubt, because I want to get out of here with my head holding high as I entered. Innocent. And I can only do this if I have the courage and I fight for it.
P. Recently, the Minister [da Economia] Paulo Gudes said he had not committed any crime, that he did not steal. Bolsonaro admitted it. Then [ministro do Supremo] Marco Aurelio de Mello recently said he sees no evidence of a crime in the triplex of Guaruja. And Mauricio Dieter, one of the biggest criminals, said there was no material crime. Do you believe that by returning the money your wife paid for this triplex [decisão da Justiça desta quinta], can you try to release it? Do you believe that?
There will be a day when people who will judge me will be concerned about the dossier of the case, not the title of the newspaper
R. Incredibly, I believe. And I continue with the head of "Lulinha Peace and Love". I believe in building a better world, in a world of justice. There will be a day when people who will judge me will be concerned about the case files, the evidence contained in the case, and not with News, with the covers of the magazines, and not with the lies of the false news. People will act as judges of the Supreme Court, which is the only thing we can not translate. And you have already made a very important decision. This court voted, for example, on stem cells, against a good part of the Catholic Church. He welcomed the issue of the Raffaela Serra to Sal rice reserve against the powerful rice in the state of Roraima. This same court voted for a civil union against all evangelical prejudices, quota for Blacks to enter [na universidade]. She already showed that she had the courage and behaved. In my case, the only thing I want is to vote for the case files. I do not ask anyone for a favor. I just want, for God's sake, people to judge in the functions of evidence. I am sure that Moreau is sure. If people do not recognize now, on the day of division they will confess. He's sure I'm innocent. Dalagnol will surely be a liar. And he lied to me. I am here, my dear, to seek justice, to prove my innocence, but I am much more concerned about what is happening to the Brazilian people. Because I can fight, but people can not always.
P. During this year the Lord spent two moments of much sadness, which was the death of his brother, and then the death of his grandson, Arthur. What do you think, after living, what remains of your life?
R. These two moments were the most serious. I could include the loss of a companion as [ex-deputado] Sigmaring Seix, who was my companion for dozens and tens of years. And the death of my brother Bava. She is like a father to the whole family. And the death of my grandson was one thing that effectively did not, no, no … [pausa e chora]. Sometimes I think it will be much easier for me to die. Since I was 73 years old, I could die and let my grandson live. But that is not. Not just those moments that make you sad, you know? I am a person who tries to be cheerful, I work hard to overcome this hate issue, this deeply hurt. When I see these people who condemned me on television, knowing they were liars, knowing they had forged stories, that story about powerpoint of Dalglish … even his great-grandson will not believe it. This ignorant messianism, you know? I have a lot of sad moments here. But what keeps me alive, and that's what they need to know, I have a commitment to this country, I have a commitment to these people. I have an obsession with what's happening now, [essa] an obsession to destroy national sovereignty, to destroy jobs, to add a trillion for what [o ministro Paulo Guedes disse que a reforma da Previdência ia economizar um trilhão de reais]? At the expense of pensioners? If they read something, if they talk, they will know that this semi-literate citizen, fourth grade, a mechanical turn, added three hundred and seventy billion dollars of supplies [internacionais] that in 4 reais the dollar gives more than one trillion and two hundred without causing injury to any Brazilian. If they want to join trillions, there is a secret formula: they put people in the Union's budget. Second, they generate employment. Third: generate credits for people. "Ah, but people owe? So:" Take the penduricalho of people's debt and it just pays the director at the bank and you realize that people are able to buy again. A country that does not generate employment, does not generate salaries, does not generate income, wants to take away from pensioners, from old people, a billion? Guedes was going to be ashamed.
P. There is a group of militants there saying good morning, good afternoon and good evening for you every day. Do you hear that weeping? How is it for you?
R. I hear every day. When they have activity, they put a sound car a little better, I hear a speech from 09:00 to 21:00. I honestly do not know how one day I can thank these people. There are people who are here right from the day I came here. I will be eternally grateful. I do not know if this ever happened in history with anyone, but I do not know what to do to thank him. I told everyone that the police certainly have the rules, my people have their own rules. But when I leave here, I want to go on foot and get there in the middle of them. I want to take the first cachaça with them. And toast.
P. His party lost last year's vote and the far right came to power by voting for many voters who were PT. How do you assess this turn of the right to an electorate that was so grateful to your administration?
R. Let's relativize all this, because one of the things I forgot to mention, one of the conditions that made me come here was because at that moment there was no lawyer who did not guarantee that I would be the judges. It was certain to many lawyers that there would be no way to prevent my candidacy, even if I had convicted that I could run for the judges. And I was sure and I was very proud that I won the elections from the chain itself. It is important to remember that I have grown 16 points here [preso em Curitiba], without being able to speak. Then, when the minister [do Supremo Luís Roberto] Barroso made such a mad thing, that I had to sign a letter in which I said [o Fernando] Haddad was a candidate, I felt that I would take the risk, because the transfer of votes is not something simple, it is not automatic, it takes time. We had atypical elections in Brazil. Let's be honest. The role of false news in the campaign, the amount of lies, the robotization of the campaign on the Internet was a crazy thing. And then the lack of sensitivity of the left sectors does not unite. The work was so crazy that Marina Silva, who was almost president in 2014, had 1% of the vote. I've never seen people with such hatred on the streets. I went a lot to the football stadium. Everyone knows I'm Corinthian, I went with Palmerens, Santos, Sao Paulo … We played, we fought. But now it was madness, it's about hatred. I watched, the whole world is like this. The policy is really demonized, and we will have to take it very seriously.
I did not expect [presidente Jair] Bolsonaro will solve the problem of Brazil in four months. He just proposes to make an analysis of a hundred days that never ruled, who thinks he can present something in a hundred days, he really did not learn to sit on the ass. And then, with the family he has, with the madness he has … His central enemy, in addition to PT, is a vice. I mean, it's crazy. He continues attacking MPs, then tries to please MPs, says he is doing the new policy, and he does the same because he is an old politician. The Earth is subject to a disaster. He does not know what to do so far, and Guedes does.
P. There was corruption, many things were proven, to be self-covering after all this time? Pot errors such as PT, without going forward?
R. We obviously admit that we lost the election. Now, it is important to remember the strength of PT. Because, just me personally, they gave more than 80 magazines to the magazine against me. When I was arrested, I had an 80-hour National Journal against me. Another 80 hours record, plus 80 hours of SBT, plus 80 for Bandeirantes. And they could not destroy me. This means that PT is very powerful. PT was not destroyed, she lost the election. She proved that she is the only party that exists in that country as a political party. The rest is an acronym of elective interests at the right time. Who finished it was PSDB. He was deleted. So, you see, PT lost the election, I think PT must make mistakes during our governments, we must make mistakes …
P. What part of the corruption?
R.. See, Ayrton Senna made one mistake and died … She [corrupção] there may be, but there is evidence. You have corruption, investigate, prosecute, prove, and you are condemned. We were from PT with which we created all mechanisms for investigating corruption. It was not an opponent, it was us. It was not Moro. It was PT in the Government of Lula and Dilma, with Marcio Thomas Bastos, Tarso Genro and Jose Eduardo Cardoso [ministros da Justiça petistas] which created all the mechanisms to guarantee the strengthening of the FP by investing in more people and more intelligence, strengthening and independence of the Public Prosecutor's Office, the transparency we have created and they are now completed. With transparency it was possible to know the role of the president. Because we wanted transparency, and the fight against corruption is a sign of the RT. If someone from PT makes a mistake, you must pay. What we want is to hurry, research. At that time he was tried and tried, he was convicted …
P. I wanted to fit into the merits of the case on the site, the reform was made and you enjoyed this reform, was not it a mistake?
R. I could accept never went to that place. So, I made a mistake to go to the site. I said, and it's proven that I heard about that damn place on January 15, 2011. And the site has an owner, owner in front of the owner. Jacob Bittar was my friend for 40 years, bought the place on behalf of his son by a check given by the Federal Savings Bank, and the police know it. Police investigated it. We had policemen and prosecutors who visited the house of the rural worker, the Masonic house, the guardian's house, and even asked the chokos: Do you know Lula? & # 39; "Do you know if Lula owns this?" And even the chickens did not speak. Because I did not own it. If I wanted to buy. If I made a mistake to go to a place someone asked and reformed the OAS, someone asked him, and Odbrett reformed, so to discuss the ethical question, not the corruption. That's another matter. It turns out that the revocation, the annulment of Dilma and the coup will not be closed with Lula in freedom. If I get stuck here and the minimum wage doubles [as pessoas poderiam falar] "Well, Lula is a bastard, he was arrested and his salary doubled." But no: they now ended with a real rise in the minimum wage. If I was here and people worked with a formal contract, but not. They have now invented the green and yellow history of the wallet [carteira que trará menos benefícios que o contrato CLT]. No businessman will hire an employee who does not have a green-yellow portfolio. These people think that people are stupid to lie to people all the time.
I have never seen people with such hatred on the streets … The policy is effectively demonized, and we will have to take it very seriously
When you talk about self-criticism, I think … I, for example, think I had a serious mistake. I could make media regulation. We had a Congress in 2009, we only participated in Bandeirantes and Rede TV, if I remember my memory, you know, there was no other TV, many radio took part, and in June 2010 we prepared media regulation. Instead of joining the Congress, because I had a choice, I thought, "No, I will leave it to the new government." I do not know why Dilma did not enter. So that's the self-criticism I'm doing. Now ask yourself the following: Imagine if everyone in Brazil made self-criticism. The Brazilian elite should now make self-criticism. "Damn it, how did we make so much money in the Lula government? How poor people lived so well? How did the poor people travel to Piau, Sergipe, in Garanhuns, and now they can not travel by bus?" Let's do it self-criticism of what happened in 2018 in these elections. What can not be is that this country is ruled by this mad gang that governs the country.
P. Delegate admitted to paying a council in Peru, in exchange for obtaining a contract. Transparency International points out that there is a "Ford for corruption", with millions of dollars distributed in several countries, and that the Odebrech scheme was made with the support of BNDES. The whole global scheme was considered to finance campaigns in countries compliant with PT …
R.. Who says that?
P. Transparency International …
R.. Based on what?
R. You must read it in the newspaper Earth. It can simply be. Let me tell you something. Претседателот на Републиката нема начин да се меша во бирократијата БНДЕС за кредитирање. БНДЕС е создаден за финансирање на бразилскиот развој. Кога Бразил го финансира развојот на земјата преку БНДЕС, Бразил извезува услуги, извезува инженеринг, машини, таму продава работи. Тоа е извонредна добивка за земја која сака да има значење во светот. БНДЕС има бирократија во која претседателот на Републиката не одлучува. Постои нешто што се нарекува COFIEX и COFIG кои учествуваат во министерот за надворешни работи, финансии, учествуваат 500 министри за да донесат одлуки. Само оние кои не учествуваат се претседателот. И јас сум во корист на BNDES кредитирање пари за развој на африкански и Латинска Америка земји. Јас сум поддршка.
П. Дали се чувствувате погрешно од овие претприемачи? Тие пораснаа многу, станаа мултинационални и потоа наградуваа донации против ПТ и вие …
R. Против мене не се лутам на следниот. Јас ги предизвикав претприемачите да кажам кој ми даде пет центи. Leo [Pinheiro] кој беше уапсен тука, кој ја поднесе жалбата против мене, помина три години велејќи едно, а потоа го смени говор. Мојот адвокат праша зошто го рече ова и рече: "Ме советуваше мојот адвокат". А што рече: "Лула знаеше". И сега што е докажано? ОАС потроши шест милиони реализирани плати за вработените во ОАС [conforme reclamação em ação trabalhista de um ex-funcionário do grupo], за стандардизација на донациите. Како можам да го сфатам ова сериозно? I can not. Ќе има доволно време за нас да спроведеме истрага, да одиме во САД за да знаеме што се меша во американското Министерство за правда во оваа истрага. Кој е интересот на Американците во Петробрас? Знаеш што е. Она што се случува најмногу во Бразил е откажување. Јас сум за одобрување. Секој знае дека кога бев претседател, беше против федералната полиција да ги испита и да ги пријави пред да има докази. Најлесно во светот е истрагата на печатот. Кога процесот ќе излезе, ако се докаже дека не сте направиле ништо, веќе сте осудени на пропаст. Јас ја најдов оваа милиција Болсаонаро чудно. Каде е тој граѓанин од седуммината? Тој човек кој е доволно паметен да заработи пари? Како се вика? [Fabricio] Queiroz. Каде е печатот што не оди по него? [Continua]
Тие соработуваа: Беатрис Јука, Гил Алеси, Хелоиса Mendonça и Џоана Оливеира